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And now, from the University of Chicago Institute of Politics and CNN Audio, the Axe Files, with your host David Axelrod.

My friend Doris Kern's goodwin's presidential biographies are a national treasure and so is she.

We had a wonderful talk a few years ago about her extraordinary life and work and the leaders in history she's helped us know so much better.

You can find that conversation in the Axe Files archives, but I wanted to talk to her again this week after the inauguration of President Biden about the stormy history we're living today and the lessons we might glean from the past.

Here's that conversation.

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Doris Kern's goodwin, my friend.

I can't think of a better person to speak to at this moment because historians will be writing about this epic in our history for sure.

You know, some of this is I'm not even sure whether it qualifies as history it seems almost biblical what we've been through in the last year.

But first thank you for for being here always always good to be with you.

Oh David I'm so glad to be able to talk with you at this incredible time this incredible moment.

It is true we are living in history and sometimes it's hard to realize that could the days go by but there's no question this will be written about for a long period of time.

And that's where I want to start which is let's divide this up into into periods here but what will the period up to yesterday's inauguration the four years of Donald Trump and particularly the last year and the last few months.

How will history record that and I know it's hard to get the vantage point exactly right in the moment but you must be thinking about that.

I do indeed I mean I think in some ways when you look especially at the last two months that it has elements of both 1861 in it and 1932.

I mean that's what makes it so difficult we've got crises tumbling on crises but the menace and anxiety in the capital when Lincoln arrived for his inauguration.

It's it's remarkable to see unfortunately that some of that was met in the fear that we had about Biden's inauguration.

I mean between the election of Lincoln and his inauguration seven states had seceded from the union and the interesting thing is that I don't know there's been focused on enough and I hadn't realized it I went back and found this part of what he said.

What Lincoln felt when when those states started seceding was that this was really a test of whether a government run by the people could really exist because it would mean that the minority has the right to break up the government because they lost the election whenever they choose.

And if they failed to stop that then it would mean that ordinary people couldn't govern themselves and it meant if they don't accept the results of the election it's going to prove that they can't and the whole idea that America is a beacon of hope for an experimental idea that people can govern themselves would be undone.

And you do have that sense of menace at his inauguration soldiers are in the streets the sharp shooters on the rooftops they've got a plot is uncovered you know to kidnap Lincoln as his train went to Baltimore so we had to change.

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