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And now, from the University of Chicago Institute of Politics and CNN Audio, the Axe Files, with your host David Axelrod.

The first time I met with Mitt Romney for this podcast was Episode 5, way back in 2015,

when he was the former governor of Massachusetts and immediate past standard bearer of the Republican Party.

I sat down with him again yesterday for a live virtual podcast at the University of Chicago's Institute of Politics under much different circumstances.

Now the senator from Utah, Romney is a bit of an outcast in the party, Donald Trump's party.

For his willingness to do what many other Republicans won't, and that is take on the president.

Romney talked about his fears about the final days of the Trump administration, his hopes for the future, and the example another Maverick Republican, his father George Romney, set for him as he navigates these turbulent times.

And one note for our listeners, we're taking Thanksgiving week off.

However, the virus allows you to celebrate, I wish you and yours the best, and look forward to better times and more conversations in the future.

Now my conversation with Senator Romney.

Senator Romney, good to see you again.

You know, the last time that we sat down, you were governor Romney, and it occurred to me as you were waiting to take some votes before we started this conversation.

There's a really big difference between being a governor and a senator, and I always wondered having been a manager, having run things, having been an executive, how this all would sit with you.

Because now you're one of a hundred.

Your schedule is at the mercy of someone else. How's it going?

I don't know what the job, but it is a very different job. There's no question about that from being an executive in the business world to helping organize the Olympics and then having served as a governor.

But I've had different jobs over my career. I started at the bottom. I worked as a consultant for a number of years where you're not able to basically do anything.

I think you're hoping to convince other people that they should take action. So there's a bit of that in the Senate. I think the most frustrating part of the job is that over the years, the Senate has moved and moved to a point where I think there's a reluctance to vote on things that might be bad votes for members of the majority's party.

So we don't vote in very much. Not either up or down, things we agree with. But if it's bad for X, Y, or Z, Senator, Y, then we don't want to take that vote.

So we vote very rarely on matters of substance. And this is a particular. I think in the two years I've been in the Senate, we haven't had a single vote on a matter related to health care, immigration, tax policy, climate change, and the list goes on.

As long as it's nothing important, you know, that's a challenge.

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