Ep 1232 | John Mark Comer & the Penal Substitutionary Atonement Debate

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey

Blaze Podcast Network

Christianity, News Commentary, News, Religion & Spirituality

4.8 • 25.8K Ratings

🗓️ 20 August 2025

⏱️ 54 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Today, we dive into the controversy surrounding evangelical pastor John Mark Comer’s apparent denial of penal substitutionary atonement, or PSA, sparked by his endorsement of a book rejecting Christ’s substitutionary death for our sins. We unpack what PSA means, why it’s central to the gospel, and the dangers of dismissing it, with insights from theologians like Alisa Childers and Denny Burke. Share the Arrows 2025 is on October 11 in Dallas, Texas! Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠sharethearrows.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for tickets now! Sponsored by: ⁠Carly Jean Los Angeles⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.carlyjeanlosangeles.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Good Ranchers⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.goodranchers.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠EveryLife⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.everylife.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Buy Allie's new book, "Toxic Empathy: How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion": ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://a.co/d/4COtBxy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ --- Timecodes: (01:21) Court of Appeals Update (04:50) John Mark Comer Controversies (24:30) What is Penal Substitutionary Atonement? (41:20) Book Review of "Lamb of the Free" (44:50) Biblical Support for Penal Substitutionary Atonement (50:31) Reactions to John Mark Comer --- Today's Sponsors: A’del — Try A'del's hand-crafted, artisan, small-batch cosmetics and use promo code ALLIE 25% off your first time purchase at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://⁠⁠⁠AdelNaturalCosmetics.com Good Ranchers — Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠GoodRanchers.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and subscribe to any of their boxes (but preferably the Allie Beth Stuckey Box) to get free Waygu burgers, hot dogs, bacon, or chicken wings in every box for life. Plus, you’ll get $40 off when you use code ALLIE at checkout. Patriot Mobile — go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠PatriotMobile.com/ALLIE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or call 972-PATRIOT and use promo code 'ALLIE' for a free month of service! Fellowship Home Loans — Fellowship Home Loans is a mortgage lending company that offers home financing solutions while integrating Christian values such as honesty, integrity, and stewardship. Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠fellowshiphomeloans.com/allie⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to get up to $500 credit towards closing costs when you finance with Fellowship Home Loans. Paleovalley — When you choose Paleovalley, you’re not just snacking—you’re making a statement. Get 15% off your first order at ⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https:/⁠/paleovalley.com⁠⁠⁠, code ALLIE. --- Episodes you might like: Ep 669 | My Thoughts on Matt Chandler & Baptist Theology https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-669-my-thoughts-on-matt-chandler-baptist-theology/id1359249098?i=1000577833389 Ep 1048 | Deconstruction: Where It’s from & How to Stop It | Guest: Alisa Childers https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-1048-progressive-christians-are-embracing-trans/id1359249098?i=1000664751621 --- Buy Allie's book, You're Not Enough (& That's Okay): Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://alliebethstuckey.com/book⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Relatable merchandise – use promo code 'ALLIE10' for a discount: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://shop.blazemedia.com/collections/allie-stuckey

Transcript

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0:00.0	Popular evangelical author and former pastor, John Mark Comer, seems to deny penal substitutionary atonement.
0:10.5	What does this mean and why does it really, really matter?
0:15.1	We've got all of this and more on today's episode of Relatable.
0:19.1	It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
0:20.7	Go to Good Ranchers.com. Use code Ali to by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to
0:20.9	GoodRanchers.com. Use code All Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far.
0:39.7	All right, we pulled you guys on Instagram and we asked you, which two subjects do you want to hear about?
0:45.3	And you guys chose PSA or penal substitutionary atonement. And if you're like, well, that sounds boring.
0:53.6	And I don't even know what any of those
0:55.2	things mean. It's not boring. It's actually very fascinating. And it has to do with something that
1:00.1	is going on in the Christian evangelical world right now. Before we get into that debate and
1:06.5	most importantly, what the Bible has to say about what Christ actually accomplished on the cross.
1:13.0	I just want to take a moment to talk about something cool that happened.
1:17.9	Well, part of it's not cool and it's sad, but part of it is really cool.
1:22.2	So the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit just issued a decision. And this decision was
1:31.5	about a case between an LGBTQ campus group on West Texas A&M and the university itself. The university
1:42.6	banned drag queens and drag queen performances on campus.
1:47.8	And then this LGBTQ group sued the university. And unfortunately, the Fifth Circuit
1:55.8	court of appeals said, no, you can't ban drag queens. This is a First Amendment violation. Well, the dissent in this, what I think was a terribly decided case, was written by a judge by the name of Judge James Ho, who is an amazing constitutionalist judge, and he wrote a very compelling dissent against the
2:21.0	majority in this case. And on page 34 of this decision within his dissent, he said this. He
2:30.6	cites an argument. But, quote, if we accept that people can change genders,
2:35.5	or even if we don't, but, or even if we don't, but agree to be polite and call a man she,
	...

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