My guests this week are Elizabeth Zalman and Jerry Neumann. Jerry has been on this show two times before. He’s an early-stage Venture Capitalist, an adjunct professor of entrepreneurship, and an excellent writer. Liz is a two-time founder, most recently co-founding StrongDM, in which Jerry was a seed investor. Together, they have written a somewhat contentious book called "Founder vs Investor" that lays bare the relationship at the core of most new businesses. They take specific moments in a start-up’s life up to IPO and share their experiences on the friction that inevitably appears. In our conversation, we discuss the strong reaction to the book, the incentive problem at the root of the relationship, and explore best practices for other founders and VCs to follow. Please enjoy my conversation with Jerry Neumann and Liz Zalman. Listen to Founders Podcast For the full show notes, transcript, and links to mentioned content, check out the episode page here. ----- This episode is brought to you by Tegus, the modern research platform for leading investors. Stretch your research budget with flexible expert calls you can trust. At a fraction of the cost of traditional expert networks, Tegus customers pay only what an expert charges – with zero markups and no confusing call credits – netting an average 70% savings. Don’t want to conduct a full hour call? Tegus offers the ability to schedule 30-minutes, an offer you won’t find anywhere else. And they don’t stop there. With white-glove custom sourcing for every project and robust compliance measures, including a dedicated 50+ analyst team that vets every call transcript, Tegus ensures your privacy and protection. As the industry innovator for qualitative insights, Tegus helps you find the right experts you need at a quality and speed that can’t be matched. For a limited time, as a listener, you can trial Tegus for free by visiting tegus.co/patrick. ----- Invest Like the Best is a property of Colossus, LLC. For more episodes of Invest Like the Best, visit joincolossus.com/episodes.  Past guests include Tobi Lutke, Kevin Systrom, Mike Krieger, John Collison, Kat Cole, Marc Andreessen, Matthew Ball, Bill Gurley, Anu Hariharan, Ben Thompson, and many more. Stay up to date on all our podcasts by signing up to Colossus Weekly, our quick dive every Sunday highlighting the top business and investing concepts from our podcasts and the best of what we read that week. Sign up here. Follow us on Twitter: @patrick_oshag | @JoinColossus Show Notes: (00:04:02) - (first question) - The controversy surrounding Founder vs Investor: The Honest Truth About Venture Capital from Startup to IPO  (00:07:53) - Considering the idea of firing founders (00:10:44) - Navigating morally grey areas for founders and investors (00:11:57) - Understanding the role of the board and their power (00:15:05) - A PSA for founders (00:17:48) - Identifying where incentives are most broken (00:22:28) - Viewing founder friendliness as a temporary status (00:25:41) - Offering good advice during the fundraising process (00:32:41) - Ensuring delivery on promises as an investor (00:37:04) - Strategies for a long-term relationship between a founder and investor (00:41:44) - Structuring the ideal board meeting tactically (00:48:13) - Determining which investing terms matter most (00:51:18) - Managing the dynamic between a founder and an investor during company growth (00:56:44) - Establishing a sustainable, differentiated position (00:59:08) - Defining the distinction between a founder and an investor (01:00:18) - Reflecting on lessons from exiting a business (01:03:52) - Exploring the VC-to-VC relationship (01:08:01) - Plans following their book release (01:11:34) - The kindest thing anyone has ever done for Elizabeth