Welcome to The Lost Debate, a show for Politically Ecclectics.

This is Robbie Gupta.

And once again, we are welcoming on our friend Isaac Saul from Tangle. Isaac, welcome back from vacation. Yeah, thanks for having me. Good to be back. Recharge, ready to rock, man. Well, okay. First thing I wanted to ask you about, you just wrote a piece about Vivek Ramoswamy.

And I wanted to talk to you before you even wrote that piece about this concept of populism,

which it's kind of driving me crazy because it's being thrown around.

And I don't think it's been defined really well in the political vernacular.

And I think Vivek is a good example of this.

The people who are being branded populists seem to be like unlikely vessels for at least any fair reading of what populism is.

I find it odd that our two most prominent popululous figures today are two billionaires.

You know, not that you have to be one of those ordinary people to be populist, but it seems

weird that we keep time and again having these vessels for populism who themselves are

mega elite. And even if you look on the left, like Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders,

like our populist figures aren't being drawn from the quote-unquote ordinary people.

Yeah, well, look, I mean, first of all, I think, you know,

this was always the big contradiction with Trump,

was that he was kind of speaking as the voice of the outsider, the voice of the forgotten people,

the kind of populist candidate.

And then it was like, you know, he spent his entire adult life as a rich millionaire, billionaire

in New York and was a Democratic donor.

And, you know, his whole life was built around like the most elite class of the kind of

Manhattanite Americans. So I struggle with the definition a lot too. I share your frustration

with it. I think one thing that is happening and that I think was part of Trump's appeal and also

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