Thanks for down learning the In Our Time podcast. For more details about In Our Time and for our terms of use, please go to BBC.co.uk.

I hope you enjoy the program.

Hello, is Democracy the truest conduit of capitalism or do the forces that make us rich run

counter in the end to the democratic institutions that Is it's still the case as we enter the era of the globalized economy?

With me to discuss the relationship between democracy, human rights and the economy is the

Numbel Prize winner, Economist Amati Asan, who's master of Trinity College, Cambridge and author of Development as Freedom.

I'm also joined by Will Hutton, former editor of the Observer, a newly installed director of

industrial society. He invented the term stakeholder society in his book The State We're in.

Mathias said in the lectures you gave to the World Bank and the book that's come out of them

you take an evaluative approach which is distinct from traditional economic policy analysis.

What's your main objective to outline a new definition of poverty?

Well, it's not so much to redefine poverty. I think we know what poverty is, that we know that poverty consists of powerlessness, primarily the powerlessness to be able to feed oneself to get medical treatment, the kind of economic means that we need.

But powerlessness could take other forms too, not being able to express oneself, getting beaten up and attacked if I expresses a contrary view.

So it just takes the unfreatum, the lack of freedom which is really the underlying force the underlying

rationale behind thinking of poverty as low income is that broadening that I try to pursue. I wouldn't see it as redefining

poverty but really exploring the implications of taking a more evaluative view of poverty, understanding poverty in terms of its motivation

rather than just its symptoms.

Do you think this has its root in your view has its root in utilitarianism?

No, I would say that it's, I mean, utilitarianism concentrated on one kind of deprivation,

namely misery in terms of psychological inability to feel well, be

well, and so on.

But it's not an adequately broad view. I mean I think in some ways probably the

...