Of all the podcast episodes I've ever done, no guest has surprised me more than artist

Winnie McNaughton, which is why her episode is without a doubt, one of my all-time favorites,

and why we're doing an encore presentation of that episode today.

Going into the interview, I worried we'd have nothing in common, nothing to talk about.

Within minutes, I already felt a bond with her.

By the end, she felt like one of my best friends.

It was just plain weird.

Listening back to the episode now, I couldn't help but cry at various points.

My seven-year-old daughter, Anna, she didn't know what to think. I don't think she's ever seen

me cry before. I'm curious whether you as a listener can feel that bond developing. I hope you can.

The advice Wendy McNaughton gives about saying goodbye to the dying might be the best advice anyone ever gave on this show.

My guest today, Wendy McNaughton is an artist and graphic journalist. Her work appears frequently in the New York

Times, and she's had a handful of best-selling books. But the main reason I wanted to talk to her today

is that she has produced a stunningly touching book called How to Say Goodbye. I'd grab it off

the shelf and be like, oh, it's going to tell me how to do this thing. But then the first thing you

learn is there's no right way to do this. There's no one way to say goodbye. Welcome to people I mostly admire with Steve Levitt.

There is no doubt that Wendy and I are very different types of people. Conversations between

opposites can be really good

or really bad. Let's see if we can figure out how to talk to one another.

As I headed over to this interview, I tried to think about the last time I had talked with an artist, someone who earns their living with a pencil or painting or sculpture.

And this will be shocking to you, but the last conversation I remember happened 25 years ago.

Are you kidding me?

...