At the start of the 20th century, Rosa Luxembourg said that humanity was faced with an alternative

between socialism and barbarism. People repeatedly have said that since, but increasing those

words do appear to be somewhat prophetic. And now we're told that the alternative is

eco-socialism or neoliberalism. Joining me today are two authors who've written a new book,

Planet on Fire, a manifesto for the age of environmental breakdown. They are Matt Lawrence

and Laurie Leiborne-Latson. Guys, welcome to the show. I'm going to be here. I'm going to ask you

a very simple question here right at the start, which is the book is called a manifesto for the

age of environmental breakdown. Why don't just say climate change? What's the difference?

The political imaginary is captivated increasingly by the climate crisis, right?

It's, that's happened more and more for the last couple of years and that just does not encapsulate

the terrible position that we find ourselves in. As increasingly we've seen, again, in the last

couple of years, particularly with things like extinction rebellion, that imaginary is opening

itself up to conceive of, say, plastic pollution or biodiversity loss or the loss of species or

the extinction of species. But it's so much more than that. And we need to see this as an overall

destabilization of the natural world. It's the climate crisis. It's what we've done to the nitrogen

cycle. It's what we're doing to the water cycle. It's what we're doing to biodiversity. And overall,

we've destabilized the earth's natural life support systems, the overall conditions that make life

both human and non-human possible on the planet. But why don't just say climate change? Because

people know what climate change is. We're environmental breakdown. People go, well, what is that? You know,

I look outside. The trees are growing. The grass is there. The sun's out. I mean, does that make

this an already complex thing more ambiguous? So do you think there's a really critical point

you're trying to convey here? Yeah, because it's more than just climate change. It's more than

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