Hello, I'm Jens Varvakis. I'm at Novara Media and I have a message for you. The best way

of underpinning any kind of potential resistance to a very toxic establishment without being

populist anti-establishment and by supporting good, irrational, humanist causes is to support

left-wing media like Novara Media. Novara Media and all such media need your support because

they certainly do not have the support of the establishment.

Kapedem.

For more than a century, socialists have believed that capitalism will end and it will be replaced

by something else, something better. But what if it ended and was replaced by something

potentially worse? What if we were moving towards post-capitalism but that didn't mean

a more dignified, equitable economy but in fact greater inequality than ever before?

Well, that's the hypothesis of today's guest. He thinks that we're moving back towards

a world of feudalism where the future looks increasingly like the past but with digital

characteristics. That's Varvakis. Welcome to Downstream.

It's very good to be back. Thank you for inviting me. It's good to talk to you again.

It was my pleasure. You said it's good to be back. I mean, we first met in 2015, I think.

You look younger now, Janis, than you did then. That's 80 years ago. How'd you do it?

Well, it's not true but I thank you profusely for this very sweet and sugar-coated lie of yours.

If it is true, it's all subterfuged. Subterfuged. Maybe there's some advanced technology

not very old. You're not letting us. Really? Very worn around the edges. It's been a very

difficult year. Very difficult year. We'll get on to that, particularly in regards to

the politics of Greece, but I think you mean obviously more widely too. We're talking

about your new book, which of course is relevant to all that, Technofuilism, what killed capitalism.

...