We talk a lot about middle-out economics. It is a metaphor.

Donut economics is a different metaphor that I think is consistent with middle-out in many ways.

Yeah, with the donut, aims to show is a goal, and that goal is that we want to meet the needs of all people within the means of the living planet.

We have to move from a conversation with economics that centers around profits for corporations and move to these much more important outcome-based metrics.

From the home offices of civic ventures in downtown Seattle, this is Pitchfork Economics, with Nick Hanauer, the best place to get the truth about who gets what and why.

I'm Nick Hanauer, founder of Civic Ventures.

I'm David Goldstein, senior fellow at Civic Ventures.

One of the big requests we get here on Pitchfork Economics is to talk about donut economics, Nick. You're familiar with donut economics?

Yeah, and we had Kate Rayworth, the originator of donut economics, on our previous podcast, the other Washington, and we've been remiss in probably not having your back on.

But today we're having one of her colleagues, Andrew Fanning, who's an ecological economist, and the data analysis and research lead at donut economics action lab, the University of Leeds, with us to talk about their work and how they're putting donut economics into, well, I guess, into action, right?

Taking this idea, this metaphor, and turning it into ideas and policies that can shape outcomes.

And it'll be really interesting to talk to him about how they're doing that. So let's get to it.

I'm Andrew Fanning, an ecological economist leading the research and data analysis at donut economics action lab.

So Andrew, tell us what the action lab is.

Where do you want to start with the elephant in the room, explain what donut economics is?

Yes, there we go. So people don't think we're talking about donuts necessarily.

Well, we could talk about donuts. I tend to do that quite a bit, but no, the donut economics is a framework that was really created by my colleague Kate Rayworth.

It's a concept that she invented in 2012. It looks like a donut. That's why it's called donut economics. It's because of the shape.

So if you imagine drawing on a sheet of paper, a donut, right? Those two rings.

And you also imagine resource use kind of emanating out from the center of that donut.

Then what the donut aims to show is a goal. And that goal is that we want to meet the needs of all people within the means of the living planet.

And how it shows that is by saying that, okay, we want to make sure that resource use is above a social foundation that it reaches that first ring of the donut that we don't want anyone to be lying in the whole of the donut.

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