A debate has been heating up on crypto Twitter about Real Economic Value (REV) — a metric meant to measure the value blockchains accrue from user activity. REV includes transaction fees and MEV tips, but excludes issuance — the inflationary rewards paid to validators. Some say it’s the clearest window into genuine usage. Others argue it’s a flawed and misleading proxy. So we brought the argument to Unchained. Tom Dunleavy, Head of Venture at Varys Capital, says fees are headed to zero, and blockchains shouldn’t be valued like companies. Meanwhile, Austin Federa, Co-founder of DoubleZero, believes REV offers a real lens on activity, maturity, and demand. The conversation covers: Whether REV is a meaningful metric (and how to game it) Whether L2 tokens are fundamentally broken What happens to security when fees (and MEV) go to zero If high REV signals product-market fit or just economic noise How to value blockchains, if not with REV Visit our website for breaking news, analysis, op-eds, articles to learn about crypto, and much more: unchainedcrypto.com Thank you to our sponsors! Bitwise Guests: Tom Dunleavy, Head of Venture at Varys Capital Austin Federa, Co-founder of DoubleZero Timestamps: 👋 0:00 Intro 📊 2:50 What REV actually measures and why it’s sparking so much debate 💸 4:33 Why fees that don’t go to the protocol are included in this metric 🪙 14:43 Whether L2 tokens are fundamentally worthless 🧮 15:53 How to factor Ethereum L2s into the REV equation 📉 18:15 Why Tom thinks all fees are going to zero and what that means for value accrual 📈 34:06 Austin defends REV and explains why it reflects real user demand ⚠️ 37:07 MEV debate: is it a feature or a flaw? 🔀 42:59 Why Solana might not follow Ethereum’s REV path 🛡️ 44:18 Who secures the network when MEV goes to zero 🤔 53:46 Whether high REV means success 🚫 59:46 Why Austin calls out Jesse Pollak’s “no sandwiching” claim on Base 🌄 1:02:30 Whether Solana’s Alpenglow proposal could reshape MEV 🔄 1:03:43 How REV might rise even as MEV declines 👑 1:07:11 Why Bitcoin lives in its own reality when it comes to metrics 🎮 1:09:57 How protocols can game the REV metric 📐 1:15:19 What other metrics matter when valuing blockchains Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices