My guest is Annou Bradford.

Andrew Bradford.

Annou Bradford is a professor at Columbia Law School and the author of a new book,

Digital Empires, The Global Battle to Regulate Technology.

Welcome to the podcast, Anu.

Thank you so much for having me, Paul.

Well, I actually should say welcome back to the podcast, because back

in May 2021, we did another of these conversations on the basis of your previous book,

the now extremely famous, The Brussels Effect, so it's great to have you back. So in a nutshell,

for our listeners, Anu, for people who haven't read your latest weighty tome, can you set out

your stall in as succinctly as possible?

What is digital empires all about? The digital empire starts from this premise that there is

increasingly globally a consensus that we need to regulate digital economy. But there is no

consensus on how we ought to do that. So the digital

empires argues that there are three primary ways to think about digital governance. There is the

American market-driven regulatory model, Chinese state-driven regulatory model, and the European, what I

call a rights-driven model.

So the book explains the origins, that the values behind these models and how they are shaping

the technology around us. And then it also focuses on various battles. What happens when these

regulatory models come into conflict and the

companies need to navigate conflicting demands by various regulators. And then it does ask the question

whether ultimately one of these models or some of these models are more influential and then

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