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The Michael Shermer Show

Did Shutting Down Schools Help or Hurt? A COVID-19 Postmortem

The Michael Shermer Show

Michael Shermer

Dialogue, Science, Reason, Michaelshermer, Natural Sciences, Skeptic

4.4 • 921 Ratings

🗓️ 26 April 2025

⏱️ 56 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

David Zweig’s new book An Abundance of Caution (MIT Press) is an account of the decision-making process behind the extended closures of public schools during the pandemic. In fascinating and meticulously reported detail, Zweig shows how some of the most trusted members of society—from Pulitzer Prize-winning journalists to eminent health officials—repeatedly made fundamental errors in their assessment and presentation of evidence.

By fall 2020, many students in Europe were already back in classrooms—and so were their peers in private schools in America and in public schools across mostly “red” states and districts. Yet millions of other children across the U.S. remained under extended school closures.

Whatever inequities that existed among American children before the pandemic, the selective school closures exacerbated them, disproportionately affecting the underprivileged. Deep mental, physical, and academic harms—among them, depression, anxiety, abuse, obesity, plummeting test scores, and rising drop-out rates—were endured for no discernible benefit.

The story of American schools during the pandemic serves as a prism through which to approach fundamental questions about why and how individuals, bureaucracies, governments, and societies act as they do in times of crisis and uncertainty. Ultimately, this book is not about COVID; it’s about being ill-equipped to make decisions under duress.

David Zweig is a writer, lecturer, and journalist. His writing has appeared in The Atlantic, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Free Press, and his newsletter, Silent Lunch. He is the author of Invisibles, about the power of embracing anonymous work in a culture obsessed with praise and recognition. His new book is An Abundance of Caution: American Schools, the Virus, and a Story of Bad Decisions.

Transcript

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0:00.0

You're listening to The Michael Shermer Show.

0:13.0

Since you start with a personal story, how did you get into this?

0:20.7

Tell us about your kids, your schools, and that's, how did you get into this? Tell us about your kids,

0:21.7

your schools, and that's kind of what launched you into this? Yeah, at the very beginning of the

0:26.1

pandemic, I sort of went along with everyone else with what we were told to do, and that also

0:34.2

involved school closures. My kids were in third and fifth grade at the time.

0:38.8

And it was very obvious basically immediately that this was not going to work for any long period of time.

0:50.1

But, you know, I was happy is not the right word, but I was certainly agreeable to go along with everything.

0:56.5

I was not knowledgeable about what was going on with the virus or other things. I had limited information.

1:02.8

What really set me on the path was watching my kids by themselves basically wilting away in front of the gray light of a Chromebook,

1:12.7

each of them. And, you know, my son who was in third grade, I mean, he finished his quote

1:17.9

unquote remote learning in like 10 minutes. And so it's like 9.30 in the morning. He's like,

1:23.6

okay, I'm done. Now what do I do? It was a problem. My wife and I were both working.

1:27.9

I'm like, I don't know.

1:29.7

You couldn't play with any kids because everyone was barred from getting together.

1:33.8

So this, it was obvious this was going to be challenging.

1:37.4

Now, the flip side of it was, well, we're presented with this new virus.

1:41.3

We were told this is very dangerous.

1:43.2

This is what we need to do. So this was

1:45.1

the sort of tradeoff that, you know, we were told needed to happen. But I'm someone who's, I've spent a

1:54.5

lot of time reading scientific journals, interviewing academics in a variety of fields. I'm

2:00.3

familiar with looking at evidence and data and research.

...

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