Welcome to the global phenomenon,

Surviving the Survivor,

where we bring you the best guests in all of True Crime.

What's up, SDS Nation, and welcome to another episode

of Surviving the Survivor, the the podcast with a host with no

glasses because it's the first day back and I forgot them but we bring you the

best guess in true crime and that hasn't changed at all and I'll tell you what I was just telling

Bob and Dr. Ann that it sure feels like a first day back but we're going to get over

the hump and bring you an amazing show today. This one is super fascinating because it combines, it combines one of the all time most notorious serial killers with a direct relationship to Bob Mata Jr.

And we'll tell you about that who's joining us and of course the great Dr. Ann Burgess who has studied serial killers the better part of her life and so I'm expecting a really fascinating episode because of that without further ado Bob Mata Jr. is the man in the beard, his father Bob

Senior was John Wayne Gacy's defense attorney and Bob Jr. launched an other podcast in addition to Defense Diaries,

which paints a chilling picture of the infamous serial killer

and his attempts to manipulate even his own attorneys.

Now Bob Moda Sr. said the following quote originally back in the day.

He says it's approximately 15 and a half hours of unedited just completely graphic

audio of Gacy. He had this audio of Gacy Bob Moda said he's had two and a half months this is leading up to the trial to think about what to do about forming some kind of theory for defense in his own mind

Gacy Bob Modd his. says, begins to waffle, suggesting he doesn't remember most of the

killings that they may have been committed by others or even his own alter ego, a guy he called Jack Hanley.

Bob Moda Sr. said he was absolutely a sociopath

and his inability to have any kind of empathy was chilling.

This is the kind of stuff Dr. Ann Burgess knows all too well through her studies.

Bob Mata Jr. not to confuse everyone, the man on the screen,

...