Three years ago, the Supreme Court's Dobbs decision overturned Roe v. Wade.

It was unprecedented because it revoked legal rights, something the court rarely does.

But what if getting Roe v. Wade struck down wasn't actually the real goal of the anti-abortion

movement? What if it were something that would instead fundamentally change our understanding

of constitutional rights in this country? That's what legal scholar Mary Ziegler argues in her new book,

Personhood, the new Civil War over reproduction. It's out now. Mary is also the Martin Luther King, Jr. Professor of Law at the University of California

Davis School of Law. She joins us after the break to discuss what she believes is the next phase

in the battle over abortion rights and her new book. I'm Jen White. You're listening to the

1A podcast where we get to the heart of the story. We'll be back with more in just a moment.

Stay with us.

Mary, welcome back to the program.

Thanks for having me.

Mary, let's just really start by defining fetal personhood.

What's the idea behind it?

Well, so, personhood can mean lots of different things in different contexts, right?

Sometimes people have definitions in philosophy and religion and biology and bioethics. In this context,

we're really talking about legal rights, right? So the idea that the word person in some parts of our constitution applies the minute an egg is fertilized. And then there's also really specific meanings that have

come into place in the U.S. about what that means in terms of what we have to criminalize and who we

have to punish. So the United States has a very specific definition of fetal personhood,

at least in our contemporary politics that may not jive with what personhood means to a lot of

listeners. And what is that modern jive with what personhood means to a lot of listeners.

And what is that modern definition of fetal personhood?

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