We’re delighted to feature this conversation as part of our new series on Liberal Virtues and Values. That liberalism is under threat is now a cliché—yet this has done nothing to stem the global resurgence of illiberalism. Part of the problem is that liberalism is often considered too “thin” to win over the allegiance of citizens, and that liberals are too afraid of speaking in moral terms. Liberalism’s opponents, by contrast, speak to people’s passions and deepest moral sentiments. This series, made possible with the generous support of the John Templeton Foundation, aims to change that narrative. In podcast conversations and long-form pieces, we'll feature content making the case that liberalism has its own distinctive set of virtues and values that are capable not only of responding to the dissatisfaction that drives authoritarianism, but also of restoring faith in liberalism as an ideology worth believing in—and defending—on its own terms. David Enoch is professor of the philosophy of law at Oxford, and a professor of law and philosophy at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He is the author of Taking Morality Seriously: A Defense of Robust Realism. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and David Enoch explore why liberalism is being defended in the wrong way, why we should be moral objectivists, and how to fight for liberal values. Note: This episode was recorded on July 14, 2025. This conversation was made possible through the support of Grant 63690 from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation. Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! Spotify | Apple | Google X: @Yascha_Mounk & @JoinPersuasion YouTube: Yascha Mounk, Persuasion LinkedIn: Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices