Ladies and gentlemen, can I please have your attention.

Can you digger?

Greetings, dear listeners, this is Jonah Goldberg, host of the Remnant podcast, brought to you by the

Dispatch and Dispatch Media.

I guest today is Cass Sunstein.

He's got a new and important book out called On Liberalism in Defense of Freedom. I mentioned this later on in the episode that I should have started

with some definitional clarity, so I'm going to do it here. When a lot of people hear the word liberal,

they immediately think of it in a partisan way, right? Liberal Democrats, those darn liberals,

liberals are at it again, that kind of thing.

That's not primarily how we're talking about it. And as you'll hear, we clarify it about 20 minutes

in. We're talking about the liberalism of the 19th century, the 20th, you know, the idea of liberalism

as distinct from monarchy, as distinct from totalitarianism, as distinct from statism, the liberalism of liberalism as distinct from monarchy, as distinct from totalitarianism, as distinct from

statism, the liberalism of liberal arts, and which I think is something that is kind of lost

by both the left and the right these days, is that the best versions of both the left and

the right are in fact liberal because this is a liberal country. Anyway, we'll get into all of that and so

much more, including what Leon Cass, who's a famous promoter of nudging in public policy,

but also a famous champion of greater efficiency in government. And so I'll ask him about both

abundance and Doge and a bunch of other things. So stay tuned.

Cass, welcome back to the remnant.

Thank you so much. It's great to be here.

And less listeners think I ignored my first responsibilities. I've already asked him about his dogs and they're fine.

Okay, so standard question when someone has a new book around here is

...