Dennis Wilder is a research fellow for the Initiative for U.S.-China Dialogue at Georgetown University,

where he is also a professor in practice. Previously, Dennis served on the National Security Council

staff for six years working on China and broader Asia issues. Dennis was also a career CIA officer

working on and managing both analysis and operations on China and East Asia. Dennis joins us today to

talk about his career and all things China. He's terrible for China. Xi Jinping is retrograde.

Xi Jinping doesn't have, I think, a worldview that makes sense. Xi Jinping has moved too far, too fast.

We'll be right back after a break. I'm Michael Morrell, and this is Intelligence Matters.

Dennis, welcome to Intelligence Matters. It is very nice to have you on the show, and it's very nice

to talk with you again. Well, it's great to be here with you, Michael, and we spent a lot of years

together. We did. In fact, I wanted to tell my listeners that you and I worked very closely together

while we were both at CIA. It was always a pleasure to work with you. Dennis, I want to start with

your career. Three basic questions. How did you end up at CIA? How did you end up spending your

career on China? Then walk us through your career trajectory inside the government.

Sure, glad to do that. I came by this honestly. I was born and raised in Southeast Asia.

My father was a Methodist minister who served the overseas Chinese community in Singapore,

Kuala Lumpur, and Penang. So I became fascinated with Chinese culture. I had a front row seat watching

Lee Kuan Yu take Singapore from a small colonial backwater to one of the highest standards of living

in East Asia. In college, I spent my junior abroad in the Yale and China program at Chinese

University of Hong Kong. That was a transformative year. Mao died that year, and it was still the end

of the culture revolution. In fact, one of my roommates was from Guangzhou, and his brother was in the

Red Guard. I remember him smuggling radio crystals across the border so his family could listen

to international broadcasts. What's interesting here, Dennis, is that most of the people who we have

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