From the Centre for European Reform, this is the CER podcast.

It is a critical moment.

If we do not act with urgency, we would then severely undermine the liberal order.

Brexit means Brexit, and we're going to make a success of it.

The wind is back in Europe's sales.

We have now a window of opportunity, but it will not stay open forever.

Hi, this is Sophia Beshe, one of the two co-hosts of the CER podcast,

and today I'm speaking to Beth Oppenheim, who you know as your other podcast host, and who is also a researcher here at the CR.

Beth has written a great deep dive into the relationship between the EU and Saudi Arabia, and I really wanted to have her on today to discuss some of her findings.

Hi, Beth. Hi,

Sophia. We're doing this via the phone between Berlin and London, but it seems to be working out

all right. Now, when Mohammed bin Salman or MBS became the Saudi crown prince in 2017, he initially

was very successful in improving the kingdom's reputation.

He introduced and promoted social reforms and raised hopes of modernization and moderation.

Welcome back. I am just back from Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, where I spent the last week.

I witnessed what seems like the beginning of a revolution.

We only want to go back to what we were, the moderate Islam that is open to the world,

open to all the religions.

But then last October, when Saudi journalist and dissident Jamal Khashadji was murdered

at the Saudi embassy in Istanbul Istanbul that shattered the illusions of many

in the West about where the country was going.

I have also been clear that if the appalling stories we are reading turn out to be true,

...