From the Center for European Reform.

This is the CERR podcast.

Hello and welcome to another episode of the CER podcast.

My name is Sophia Besh.

I'm a research fellow here at the Center for European Reform.

And I'm speaking today to Ian Bond,

who's the CES Director for Foreign

Policy. Good morning. So we are at a bit over half a year into the Trump presidency. And what we

want to talk about today is how should, how can Europe and the EU deal with a world in which

Donald Trump is president? And in this podcast, Ian is here to discuss two aspects

of this question. The first one related to values and the second related to security interests,

particularly in Asia. So let us start with values. You argue Ian in your writing that the Trump

presidency erodes and undermines the international liberal order, which the

EU relies on. And inevitably, we have to ask ourselves, what is the international liberal order,

and broadly what kind of order do Trump and his advisors have in mind? Both have made their

worldviews quite explicit. On the one hand, the EU Global Strategy states that we have an interest in promoting

agreed rules to provide global public goods. The EU will promote a rules-based global order

with multilateralism as its key principle. And then on the other hand, Shams National Security

Advisor, H.R. McMaster and the director of his National Economic Council, Gary Cohn,

say that the world is not a global community, but an arena where nations, non-governmental actors,

and businesses engage and compete for advantage. Rather than deny this elemental nature of

international affairs, we embrace it. And they say that America was open to working with its

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