Hello and welcome. My name is Sophia Bash and you're listening to the CER podcast.

Hello. I'm here today with Daniel Kjahan, who is a CER alumnus. Daniel is now a senior researcher

at the Center for Security Studies at ETH Zurich.

He used to be the European Defence Research Fellow at the CIA. So my question to you is, first of all,

the Brexit negotiations and how they might affect Europe speaking with one voice on defense and security.

Because this could be one of the few constructive areas for cooperation post-prexies.

In theory, if we were looking at a rational actor negotiation,

I think this is one of the areas where there is a mutual benefit for both sides.

So the EU obviously has an interest

in keeping the UK as a very powerful military power closely involved in its operations.

And the UK similarly has no interest in the EU becoming a civilian power. Because what the

EU certainly does do is it brings European member states together at one table, which for a lot of the

security topics that we're talking about is crucial, really, the information sharing in the first place.

And the UK certainly has an interest in continuing to be a part of these discussions.

Because European security in the end is in every member state's national interest and even a parting

member state like the UK should keep that in mind. But we're not looking at a rational actor

negotiation. Things are getting emotional. Yeah, things are getting emotional, things are getting

political and both sides really have something to prove in these negotiations.

So the UK has really gone into a big political gamble,

and it has to prove to its citizens that it can indeed be better off as a global Britain outside of the European Union.

And the EU 27 are looking at the exact opposite of that rationale.

The EU 27, let, I think in particular by Germany and France,

...