Well, hello everyone. My name is Catherine Barnard, and I'm delighted to be here today with two fantastic guests

who I'll introduce in a moment talking about the vexed, controversial, exciting issue of

migration, a subject which is constantly in the news, particularly in the light of the new schemes

for welcoming Ukrainian migrants and refugees, and also the new UK scheme for returning asylum seekers to Rwanda.

And I can think of no one better to talk about these issues than my two marvellous colleagues,

Catherine Costello and Catherine Bredick.

Catherine Bredick is a lecturer at the Refugee Study Centre at the University of Oxford

and Catherine Castello is Professor of Fundamental Rights at the Hurti School in Berlin,

co-director of the Centre for Fundamental Rights and also Professor of International Human Rights and Refugee Law at the University of Oxford.

Welcome to you both, thank you very much indeed for your time.

Now, we hear the terms asylum seeker, refugee, illegal immigrant used a lot. And what I'd like to

start with is a quick fly around. What do these terms actually mean? Asylum Seeker, Catherine

Briddick. So an asylum seeker is someone who has exercised their right in international law

to seek protection from persecution and other forms of serious harm, and their legal claim for

sanctuary has yet to be determined. Thank you. And Catherine Costello, what's the refugee then?

Well, in law, we have one relatively narrow definition, which we find in the 1951 refugee

convention, which speaks about somebody who is outside her country of origin, with a well-founded

fear of being persecuted on a list of political grounds.

But there's also a wider notion of refugee also in law, which speaks about individuals

who fled generalized violence or who

are fleeing from serious human rights violations. In some regions, that wider concept of a refugee

is also codified in international law or in international norms. That's the case in Africa and Latin

...