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This is CBSI in the world. I'm John Baxter with Jonathan D.T. Ward, his new book,

The Decisive Decade, American Grand Strategy for Triumph Over China. A decade ago, Jonathan,

many American corporations saw China as a great profit bonanza to make, to transform their national and a transatlantic business into a global business.

Few of those corporations remain now.

However, we're dealing with a much larger concept than whether Caterpillar is going to do well in China.

There's the first great divergence, I read from your reporting.

That was the Industrial Revolution a couple centuries ago.

Now, the second great divergence, what is that? So the second great divergence is something that I've

introduced in this book as an idea for what would it really look like for us to win this contest

from a historical perspective. I mean, if we were to go farther out into the century and think,

look, we actually headed off this challenge. We stopped the challenge from Beijing and we, you know, preserved the American-led border

and the world as defined and, you know, managed by the world's democracies as opposed to

the dictatorships that contest us now.

...