You know, the thing that's really very important is the steps of AA are not about alcohol.

There's a brief mention of it in step one, but essentially the rest is not about alcohol.

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Essentially, the AA framework is one that is steeped in a moral framework, you know, notions of doing, correcting your wrongs,

making amends. It's really very, very much into the notion that you're doing something wrong and you're going to find redemption through a

higher power. So people can talk until the cows come home about the idea that it's your

own concept of a higher power, that it's not about blaming, but it's hard to read the steps, the traditional

steps, or to be in a meeting without coming out of that very strong flavor of rights and

wrongs and higher power. So I'm a therapist. I'm not part of the AA world.

And I actually found, you know, I thought that AA has had some effectiveness and people

have been coming to it, you know, question.

It's not about how much, but certainly there is, you know,

it has worked for some people. And so the question is, what is it that make it work? And can we

find a way to express it, to express what makes it work, while letting go of the baggage that's

...