This is longtime Cato Daily podcast host, Caleb Brown.

I've hosted the Cater Daily podcast for nearly 18 years, but no more.

But I wanted to leave loyal listeners with some favorite episodes that I hope ring true and relevant to our current moment.

This is one of them.

Thank you for listening.

This is the Cato Daily podcast for Friday, November 2, 2007.

I'm Caleb Brown.

How does one argue against the welfare state using the values of those most inclined to defend the welfare state?

Philosopher Daniel Shapiro believes he has done so in his book,

is the welfare state justified?

We spoke following a Cato book forum on his book this week.

My purpose in writing this book was to show that people who defend the welfare state, using values such as fairness, sustaining a sense of community,

open and transparent institutions, providing people with access to basic goods that are used

by defenders of the welfare state actually does not provide a defense of welfare state.

It actually provides a way of defending more market-based

alternatives to the welfare state. So what I'm trying to do is show that people from different

viewpoints, from the dominant viewpoints among those who defend the welfare state,

actually should converge on opposing it, even though they've believed they should support it.

So their principles lead to different conclusions than they thought.

Describe a perspective that would lead one to support the welfare state.

Well, the perspective that is used by people to defend the welfare state, I don't think it actually supports it.

That's the aim of my book, is to actually argue there leads to different inclusion.

...