People need to hear this and you know I talked to all these artists musicians writers indie filmmakers

And I asked them very intimate questions about their financial lives the kinds of things that you're not supposed to talk about, you're

so they're not supposed to ask about. They were very generous with revealing this stuff to me and many of them said the reason

I'm doing this, even though it's uncomfortable to talk about is that I

wish somebody had told me this when I was starting out as a young artist. Young artists need

to hear the truth. And the point is not to discourage people from pursuing a

career. It's the last thing I'd want to do. It's as you said to give them a

realistic picture amidst all of the optimism that's being sold to them.

I'm Sreeney Rao and this is the unmistakable creative

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Bill, welcome to the end of Stick Up Creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

It's great to be back. Thanks for having me again.

Yeah, my pleasure.

So, you know, we had you back here when I came across your book,

Excellent Sheep, and, you know, which was all about what you called the

Miseducation of the American elite.

And to me, it was one of the things that really resonated,

because I thought in a lot of ways you're describing my college

...