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I'm John Batch, sir Judy Demsie, the editor-in-chief strategic Europe for the Carnegie Endowment

in Berlin, commenting recently about the refugee story in Europe. And this is a story that

is easy to overlook, given the violence and the tragedy of the Ukraine conflict. Internally

displaced is a big number. However, those people who have fled Poland, they young, the elderly,

the children, they are refugees in Europe that is an intransition always about energy,

about armaments, about Russia. But is there an agreement that the Ukrainian refugees

are well housed? Or are they increasingly facing the dislocations that was true in 2015

when people poured in from the Middle East? Is there a contrast or a similarity, Judy?

The similarity isn't terms of numbers. In fact, more Ukrainians than people fleeing

the war in Syria and Iraq have come to your particularly Poland and Germany and Ireland.

I mean, all over, but mostly Poland and Germany. The numbers are huge. And it's actually

ignored the 3 million displaced inside Ukraine. This is a conservative estimate. There's

millions, millions of displaced people in Ukraine trying to seek shelter, whether it's in

the bigger safe cities in the West. But in Europe, at the moment, when I think because

the Ukrainians, frankly, are considered European, so far, they have been given the best of

welcome, housing, education. The media is right to work, which is very important, and

...