For all the times we didn't live up to our ideals, for all the times that we've made mistakes on the international stage, if we get democracy right, democracy is stronger around the globe.

And when we don't get it right,

or we don't look like we care about it,

others fill that gap.

This is Radio Atlantic.

I'm Jeffrey Goldberg, the editor-in-chief of the Atlantic. I recently interviewed President Barack Obama to talk about disinformation, what it is, how it threatens our democracy here in America and in countries

around the world, and how it can be countered.

The very tools that helped pro-democracy movements around the world and opened the public square to new and interesting voices, are now used to disseminate

disinformation, undermining our democratic institutions.

Nowhere is the assault on democracy more evident at this moment than in Ukraine,

where Vladimir Putin is attempting to demolish Ukraine's democracy and Ukraine itself.

Throughout this aggression, we've witnessed the wholesale suppression of information as an effective

tactic of war. In this live conversation taped at the University of Chicago,

I talked with President Obama about how we define disinformation and what to make of its weaponization around the globe.

We started our conversation by talking about the war in Ukraine and the role this information plays in deceiving the Russian people.

Before we go directly into the subject of disinformation,

is a lot to cover. I wanted to ask you to talk a little

bit about Ukraine, where we are right now. And something that I think everybody here would

appreciate is the chance to hear you talk about this through the prism of your knowledge of

Vladimir Putin. You spend a lot of time with him, a lot of time grappling with him.

Spend a couple of minutes if you can explaining where we are and where you think this is

headed.

...