Antonio Guterres, UN Secretary General: The threat to international law from power
The Interview
BBC
4.3 • 537 Ratings
🗓️ 21 January 2026
⏱️ 23 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
“There are those that believe the power of law should be replaced by the law of power”
Anna Foster speaks to Antonio Guterres, Secretary General of the United Nations, about the threat to international law from states acting through power and influence instead, in particular America. Defending the rule of law is necessary, he says, if we are to have a better world.
He also sets out the case for reform of the UN Security Council to allow it to remain effective and relevant in the face of increasingly complex global conflicts.
Antonio Guterres has been at the head of the United Nations since 2017, and is now entering his final year in office. Thank you to the Today team for its help in making this programme. The Interview brings you conversations with people shaping our world, from all over the world. The best interviews from the BBC, including episodes with Colombia’s President Gustavo Petro, former Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda Ardern and Mustafa Suleyman, boss of Microsoft AI. You can listen on the BBC World Service on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays at 0800 GMT. Or you can listen to The Interview as a podcast, out three times a week on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts.
Presenter: Anna Foster Producer: Lucy Sheppard Editor: Justine Lang
Get in touch with us on email TheInterview@bbc.co.uk and use the hashtag #TheInterviewBBC on social media.
(Image: Antonio Guterres. Credit: Per-Anders Pettersson/Getty Images)
Transcript
Click on a timestamp to play from that location
| 0:00.0 | BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, podcasts. |
| 0:05.8 | Hello, I'm Anna Foster, and this is the interview from the BBC World Service, |
| 0:11.0 | the best conversations coming out of the BBC, people shaping our world from all over the world. |
| 0:18.0 | If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention. |
| 0:22.6 | We have never seen a people so united. |
| 0:25.6 | Do not make that boat crossing. |
| 0:27.6 | Do not make that journey. |
| 0:28.6 | Being born in America, feeling American, having people treat me like I'm not. |
| 0:32.6 | We're more popular than populism. |
| 0:35.6 | For this interview, I met Antonio Gutierrez, Secretary General of the United Nations. |
| 0:41.5 | As the head of the UN since 2017, he's now entering his final year in office, |
| 0:46.9 | and he's issuing a stark warning about the state of the world. |
| 0:50.7 | Global conflicts are increasingly complex and seemingly intractable, |
| 0:55.2 | and international law is seen by some as secondary to power and influence, |
| 0:59.6 | in particular by the United States. |
| 1:02.1 | In the face of this threat to the world order, |
| 1:04.2 | he says the UN Security Council, |
| 1:06.4 | designed to maintain international peace and security, |
| 1:10.0 | is ineffective and in desperate need of reform. |
| 1:13.7 | There is a problem of efficiency, there is a problem of legitimacy. |
| 1:16.8 | Security Council was created after the Second World War. |
| 1:20.5 | There was been a few adjustments. |
... |
Please login to see the full transcript.
Disclaimer: The podcast and artwork embedded on this page are from BBC, and are the property of its owner and not affiliated with or endorsed by Tapesearch.
Generated transcripts are the property of BBC and are distributed freely under the Fair Use doctrine. Transcripts generated by Tapesearch are not guaranteed to be accurate.
Copyright © Tapesearch 2026.