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Welcome to the Bullwork Podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. It is May 16, 2023 and we are in Washington, DC. As you know, we're going to be taking the Bullwork Podcast on the road.

There's a night in New York City and you'll be able to hear my one-on-one with my colleague Tim Miller on Friday morning.

Also, we continue to have more breaking news for those of you who are tuning in and want to hear about what happened with the Durham investigation, which ended not with a bang but with a whimper or a Donald Trump would put a total exoneration.

There's a lot going on there and we're going to be devoting tomorrow's edition of the Trump Trials to going through that.

I'll be joined by law fairs Ben Whittes. We're going to walk through the whole Russia story again. As you know, usually the Trump Trials is on Thursday but we figured with the breaking news that we would move it up until Wednesday.

Also in the news and we are going to be doing this as well on tomorrow's podcast. The latest stories about America's mayor Rudy Giuliani.

I think you probably know most of the top lines there in the former aid was suing America's mayor alleging that he made her work naked, made her perform oral sex, drank all day and night, made racist remarks, made sexist remarks, made any symmetric remarks, didn't pay his bills.

And allegedly was selling a pardons for $2 million a piece and according to the allegation, maybe splitting it. Now again, we don't know all of the evidence there.

But this is one of those stories where the salacious details might distract from the weight.

Rudy Giuliani was selling presidential pardons for cash. I mean, that might be a problem, don't you think?

And so this will be another one of the topics that we're going to explore in more detail. But that will be in tomorrow's podcast because today we're going to be taking a deep dive into what's happening in Ukraine, including the pivotal moment that we are in as we wait for the counter offensive.

And whether or not this will lead to a stalemate or the possibility of Ukrainian victory and what Ukrainian victory might mean for the world going forward.

On today's podcast, we're going to take a deep dive into the new cover story in the Atlantic monthly magazine.

The case for the total liberation of Ukraine or a guest today is Ann Applebaum, staff writer at the Atlantic whose books include red famine, stones, worn Ukraine, the Pulitzer Prize winning gulag, a history and more recently,

Twilight of democracy and welcome back on the podcast.

Thanks for having me.

Well, you won the show last year after you and Jeffrey Goldberg met with president Zelensky in his compound and back then, you know, you had to take this train. There was no timetable.

The center of Kiev was blacked out. There was only one restaurant in the city that was open. You met with the president again a couple of weeks ago.

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