You're listening to Robert Wright's Non-Zero Podcast.

Hi, David.

Hey, Bob. How's it going?

Can't complain. Let me introduce us. I'm Robert Wright, publisher with a non-zero newsletter, and this is the Non-Zero podcast. You're David Sacks.

A co-host of a podcast of your own,

the All In podcast, also a noted Silicon Valley entrepreneur and venture capitalists.

You started Yammer, which did very well. You were part of the storied PayPal Mafia back in the day,

along with people like Elon Musk and Peter Thiel.

In fact, I think in the Times I recently saw you identified as still a close associate of Peter

Teal and Elon Musk. Now, one thing that I think distinguishes you from a lot of Silicon Valley

figures is your interest in talking about foreign policy.

I don't hear a lot of that from, well, from, you know, entrepreneurs and corporate people generally.

And I suspect that your views distinguish you, in some cases, even from those few people in those communities

who do speak about foreign policy. I'm thinking particularly about Ukraine. You have strongly felt

views about Ukraine that you've expressed that I think it's safe to say are not entirely

mainstream. Is that fair? Yeah. Although, I mean, I think,

I think they're mainstream within the community that's called realism and restraint. But since

that community is sort of, you know, an outlier to, you know, the foreign policy establishment,

then yes, I agree with your characterization. Yeah. Okay. So I want to talk about that, and we may get it other things,

Silicon Valley related things of various kinds. But first of all, why don't you elaborate

a little on what your views on Ukraine are? Well, I mean, I appreciate your work on the subject. You subject. I've read all of your blogs about it. Two in

particular, I thought, were really important and helped shape my thinking. One was, I think it was

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