This is American Resistance. A miniseries highlighting the people and stories from David

Rothkoff's latest book, American Resistance, the inside story of how the deep state saved

the nation. Hello and welcome to another in the special series of podcasts we are doing

focusing on some of the leading players in my book, American Resistance. Today I'm really

glad that we are joined by Dr. Anthony Fauci. As all of you know, Dr. Fauci is director

of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases at the U.S. National Institutes

and is the Chief Medical Advisor to President Joe Biden. He's been a key advisor to seven

presidents and their administrations on wide range of issues including global HIV AIDS issues

and on initiatives to bolster medical and public health preparedness against emerging infectious

disease threats. And that included, of course, COVID, which is the area that we talked about in

the book. Thanks for joining us. My pleasure. Good to be with you.

Let me begin with a framing question. The relationship between scientists and politicians

is complicated. Science is fact-based. Politics is often based on other factors ambition trying

to read the crowd. You've been dealing with that tension between the two approaches for I guess

about 40 years. How in your mind has it evolved? Has it evolved at all? Do we treat or have we in

the recent past treated science differently than perhaps we did when you were getting started?

You know, I think it's important to note that I don't think there is a pattern of evolution of

something getting better and better or worse and worse. It really depends on a couple of conflating

issues. One, the particular public health issue that is at hand at a given time, for example,

in the 80s, it was heavily weighted towards HIV. And then we had pandemic flu in 2009. And then we

had the Ebola, which was less a problem in the United States, but more of how we viewed the threat

to the United States. And then we have the situation of a completely historic and transforming

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