Hi, I'm Zivie Owens, and I am the host of this podcast. Moms don't have time to read books.

I am also a newly minted USA Today bestselling author of the novel, Blank.

I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company, reading retreats, a bookstore, and more.

Learn more at zivimedia.com or follow me on social at Zibby Owens or join the community at

Zibby Readers.

Lisa Keefeover is the author of Grief as a Sneaky Bitch, an uncensored guide to navigating loss. She is a social

worker, grief activist, and founder of reimagining grief. Lisa is an adjunct professor of loss

and grief at the University of Texas at Austin, an organizational consultant, and a keynote speaker,

including at TEDx. In 2019, she created the popular podcast, Grief is a sneaky bitch.

Welcome, Lisa. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to Discuss

Grief is a sneaky bitch and uncensored guide to navigating loss. Thank you.

I'm having a little surreal out-of-body moment being on this side of the microphone and being

in conversation with you.

So thank you so much for inviting me. I appreciate it. It's my pleasure. It's my pleasure.

First of all, I feel like we should preface the episode with the same thing that you preface the book with, which is this sort of non-gendered, you know, bitch announcement that you're not saying.

So maybe you should talk about that.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I recognize that it has a gendered name in our culture. And as you mentioned,

in conversation with my publisher, I thought, oh, we'll put a note up front. This is really about

the ways in which I'm calling out our culture around our false narratives about what grief really is

and the way it can be sneaky and sort of reclaiming it and owning it and so that we can

understand a little bit better how to navigate grief. So there's not a, this is not a gendered

slam or slur. This is really a reclaiming of like, we're going to name what grief is really like and

...