open source is sponsored by listeners like you.

Pitch in to keep the world's first podcast going strong.

15 years in counting, find us at patreon.com slash radio open source.

And thank you.

I'm Christopher Lighten. This is open source.

What we're hearing this hour is seriously different ways of thinking about the war in Ukraine.

From two men I've known and respected for decades.

James Carroll is the novelist historian, former Catholic priest,

and peace activist from long before I knew you, Jim, which goes back 40 years.

Andrew Basovich, you're the writer, fighter, university-based historian.

I've known for only 20 years.

When Jim Carroll went off to the seminary as a teenager,

you went off to West Point as a soldier, Andy, and then to Vietnam,

but you came round to a strong anti-war conviction and activism

in the form of the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft,

which is our collaborator in this radio series.

I'm the journalist at large here.

Grateful to have enlisted both of you in this conversation.

Jim Carroll, you started the conversation with a six-part essay

that you published last month with the new school in New York

in their online public seminar.

You called it an anti-war activist's personal and political reckoning.

...