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Welcome to the History Extra Podcast, Fascinating Historical Conversations from the makers of BBC History magazine.

When we think of American Civil Rights, History magazine.

When we think of American civil rights,

we tend to focus on the mid-20th century

and the likes of Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks,

who fought for the rights of black people in an era of segregation.

But in his revelatory new book, Before the Movement, Professor Dylan Penningroth tells a much longer

and broader story, beginning in the era of slavery and focusing on everyday legal matters that historians have traditionally overlooked.

The book has been shortlisted for the Kundal history. historians have traditionally overlooked.

The book has been shortlisted for the Kundle History Prize of which we're a media partner,

and Rob Atar caught up with Dylan recently to find out more.

Rob began by asking Dylan to lay out the chief arguments of his book.

So the book is really about two main ideas.

One is, what would black history look like if we put black people at the center of the story?

I ask it that way because when you think about African American history, the way that it's typically written in the United States,

it's usually a history of race relations. It's about black people overcoming adversity,

striving to become full citizens up from slavery.

And that story, of course, is absolutely true

and vital and necessary, but there's something peculiar about it, which is that it makes it seem as though you can't

...