From New York Times, I'm Michael Bobarrow.

This is the Daily.

A few days ago in Rome,

Vice President J.D. Vance met with the new Pope.

And then, he sat down with my colleague, Ross Douthan, a Times opinion columnist and host of a new podcast called Interesting Times for an interview about faith, immigration, the law, and the partisan temptation to go too far.

Today, Ross talks us through their conversation. temptation to go too far.

Today, Ross talks us through their conversation.

It's Thursday, May 22nd.

Ross, thank you for being here.

I know that you've had a very long couple of days, sleepless couple of days, and we appreciate you making time.

Michael, it is my pleasure, and it is a privilege to be with you, and I have slept two

nights back at home in the United States, so I am completely rested and ready.

Well, just to start, tell us how this interview, which required you to leave the country and lose a lot of sleep, how it came about.

Well, so like a number of people in journalism, I have known J.D. Vance, the vice president, since long before he became the vice president all the way back to

when he was just a humble bestselling author and occasional contributor to the New York Times

opinion pages, in fact. And through that connection, I convinced him to grant me an extended

interview just before he became Donald Trump's

vice presidential nominee. And then a couple of months ago, I launched my own new interview podcast.

And of course, I came back to him and said, hey, now I'm interviewing people all the time.

Wouldn't you like to be interviewed

again? And he very graciously suggested that maybe I would like to come to Rome, where he was

leading the U.S. delegation to the inaugural mass of Pope Leo the 14th, who is, of course,

...