#821: My Two-Year Secret Project, COYOTE — The Strategies and Tactics for Building a Bestseller from Nothing with Elan Lee of Exploding Kittens
The Tim Ferriss Show
Tim Ferriss: Bestselling Author, Human Guinea Pig
4.6 • 17.7K Ratings
🗓️ 5 August 2025
⏱️ 180 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
This is a very special episode for me. My brand-new card game, COYOTE, created in collaboration with Elan Lee and Exploding Kittens, is here. It is available in ~8,000 locations worldwide, including Walmart, Target, Amazon, and many others. Learn more: https://coyotegame.com.
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Timestamps:
[00:00:00] Start.
[00:05:21] Coyote: a game 47 years in the making.
[00:08:41] Who is Elan Lee?
[00:09:37] How our motivations behind game creation intersect.
[00:12:41] The nutshell view of pitching a game to a retailer.
[00:14:40] Salesmanship is a learnable skill, but Elan’s a natural.
[00:15:53] Why I’ve always wanted to make my own game and how development began in earnest.
[00:26:00] First contact with Elan and our fast-forged, fun-focused friendship.
[00:32:28] The Hanabi and Rock, Paper, Scissors-inspired Toronto trip breakthrough.
[00:39:40] Early prototyping and testing.
[00:45:34] The Zero Effect.
[00:47:37] Recommended game design rationales, resources, and reading.
[00:53:00] The beginner’s mind approach to writing effective game instructions.
[00:56:26] A simple fact: less complication = more fun.
[00:57:49] Cooperative vs. competitive play.
[00:58:24] Leveling the playing field with attack cards and sabotage mechanics.
[01:01:34] Tricking people into cognitively bettering themselves by gaming.
[01:08:04] Finding the sweet spot.
[01:10:44] It takes a lot of work to make a game effortlessly fun.
[01:13:40] How many games does Exploding Kittens publish per year?
[01:14:36] Exploding Kittens’ number-one seller was designed by Elan’s four-year-old daughter.
[01:18:30] Prototypes and pitching.
[01:22:26] Improving on the industry’s fundamentally flawed testing procedure.
[01:24:58] Analyzing passing/failure with play testers’ video and feedback.
[01:28:41] Risks of internal testing.
[01:31:47] Coyote’s first positive signs from the wild.
[01:34:22] Online vs. physical store sales and tweaking variables to gauge market interest.
[01:41:22] What a successful line review looks like.
[01:43:51] Line review hoops through which lesser-proven companies have to hop.
[01:48:04] Elan’s field-tested line review meeting strategies.
[01:54:15] The importance of finding proper agent representation.
[01:59:35] In modern marketing, social media (especially short-form video) is king.
[02:04:48] The best and worst ways for an aspiring designer to sell a game.
[02:13:05] Crowdfunding pros and cons, and Kickstarter alternatives.
[02:19:57] Dealing with deal terms.
[02:23:56] The Exploding Kittens attitude toward rare partnerships.
[02:25:45] The types of games that capture Elan’s attention.
[02:27:40] Common game design mistakes.
[02:29:49] How we tried to avoid these mistakes when packaging Coyote.
[02:33:55] Self-publishing vs. conventional publishing.
[02:38:40] Business considerations and risks.
[02:44:59] Parting thoughts and a tantalizing offer.
*
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Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show. |
| 0:04.7 | Boy, this is a special one. I'll keep my intro brief as my conversation with Alon Lee, which you're about to hear, covers the whole backstory. |
| 0:12.7 | This is a very, very, very fun episode for me. One, I've been looking forward to publishing for months and actually about two years because my |
| 0:21.0 | brand new card game, Coyote, created in collaboration with Alon and Explodinkins, which started |
| 0:25.9 | with this podcast, is now a national bestseller. It's everywhere. Just launched 8,000 locations worldwide, |
| 0:32.8 | including Walmart, Target, Amazon, and a gajillion others. It's a very fast-paced car game, takes minutes to learn, |
| 0:40.6 | hard to master, hat tip, Nolan, Bushnell, and 300 million plus social views of gameplay now online. |
| 0:48.4 | Everything's gone bananas. And please check it out. Please, please check it out. If I've done |
| 0:53.1 | anything that you've benefited from, |
| 0:54.8 | coyote game.com. And there's a lot under the hood that I think you might find of interest, even if you're not a gamer, you don't think about yourself as playing games. Coyotegame.com. Super, super satisfying the entire team at Exploiting Kittens as incredible. They're rock stars. a pleasure to work with. So enjoy my conversation with Alon Lee. We talk about the art of the pitch. |
| 0:54.9 | We talk about... as incredible. They're rock stars. A pleasure to work with. So enjoy my conversation with |
| 1:12.2 | Alon Lee. We talk about the art of the pitch. We talk about figuring out mass retail. We talk |
| 1:16.4 | about prototyping. We talk about game development. We talk about the nuts and bolts behind the |
| 1:21.1 | scenes backstory of creating something like this from nothing. One last thing. Stick around to the |
| 1:26.6 | end for a very fun surprise that |
| 1:28.3 | involves a mystery Hollywood party that you might be able to join. Would love you to join. So, |
| 1:33.7 | stick around. Please enjoy right after just a few words from the partners who make this podcast |
| 1:37.8 | possible. If I were to update the four-hour work week, which I get asked to do a lot, |
| 1:43.4 | I would really only add one thing, |
| 1:45.9 | and that is a section on AI tools, because for everything I described with virtual assistance, |
| 1:52.0 | and with so much more, you can do with technology immediately. And that can be automated, |
| 1:57.9 | delegated. There's so much that you can do. And this is also why I recommend |
... |
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