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Hey, I want to jump in on that.

Okay, what you said is great if that were, you know, a polygystrategy. Don't look here. Well, for instance, I got I got to say this and then I wanted to loop back to your earlier comment.

Adam Miller and that Buddhist story is completely different from what you're saying here.

It's skillful means is what it's the the term and Buddhism that says, you know, does this help you towards enlightenment or does it help you towards enlightenment?

You're focusing on the wrong thing. You want to know all these other things. Look, enlightenment is realizing I got to get rid of the Sarah. I got to get rid of my craving.

Adam Miller believes that enlightenment is looking towards Buddhism instead of towards the general authorities.

I don't know about that. It's but where you have Adam saying things like, you know, Mormonism really points beyond Mormonism.

All religion really does that. I even did a podcast on Mormon matters called a Mormonism that looks beyond itself.

You know, so it for you know, and I think pretty much everybody here would say if there's such a thing as salvation, it isn't because of a set of beliefs. It's easy to believe or not believe in all that stuff.

It's you know, who did you become? You know, it's not like, did you do all these things to get this flesh came? It's who did you become? Are you able to be a celestial person?

I think everybody agrees with that. They just don't think of it all the time. But so I don't want to think that Adam or mostly neo-apologetics,

neo-apologists are saying, don't look over here.

But they are. They are. And this is why I'll say that they are. They don't express that, but they're refusal to engage directly in public with certain intractable issues.

It shows, I think, what basket their eggs are in. And so on the first part of this interview, when John, I don't know if we want to use the word accused of Patrick and whoever else of having quote unquote secret meetings,

where we're trying to convince people to stay in the church, and they said, well, it wasn't a secret meeting or whatever. And I would say, well, it's certainly not open to the public.

So maybe it's not secret, but it is private. And there are lots of examples of this.

Whether, like, I heard, again, because it wasn't widely publicized, because people are not supposed to bring attention to themselves as charismatic individuals that are not part of the hierarchy,

because you get in trouble for that. But I heard that several years ago, I forget where in Utah County, maybe, that, you know, like,

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