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the Hello and welcome to Politics Theory Other, a podcast from Tribune magazine.

My name is Alex Doherty and my guest today is Maya Goodfellow.

We spoke about her new book, Hostile Environment, How Immigrants Became Scapegoats, which is out now from Verso Books.

If you'd like to hear the extended version of today's interview, then please consider becoming a supporter of this show.

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Maya Goodfellow is a writer, researcher and academic.

She has written for The New York Times, The Guardian, the New Statesman, Al Jazeera and

the Independent. She received her PhD from SOAS, part of the University of London, and she's a trustee

of the Rani Mead Trust. You start the book talking about some of the personal experiences

of people who've come to Britain and attempted to navigate the immigration system.

Could you talk a bit about that system, both in terms of the hostile environment,

and in particular that seemingly deliberate complexity of the system that seems designed less to guide people through a process,

but rather to exhaust and demoralise and put people

...