If you're joining us, hello, please like and subscribe. We are talking today about this

absolutely fantastic and essential book by Emma, who I'm very honored to have here. What

white people can do next from allyship to coalition. Hey you, how you doing? Yeah, I'm good,

thanks. How are you? We are where we are, aren't we? So yeah, you're looking very, I don't know

what the word is, you're looking very windswept. Do you look, I mean, I mean, I mean, I look like I

don't know what's happened to my head, but windswept would be kind in my case. No, you, you, you,

you don't look too locked down out if that's an expression, which I've never heard. I've not heard

it before, but I'm into it. It's actually quite a good one. It was coined here.

This book, which we're going to talk about, I mean, there's just so much in it, which is just

incredible. What I might start with is, I suppose the concept of whiners. We know she's right about

in the book, and I should say about this book, by the way, for people who, this is their first

fun hearing about it, this is, it's a book which is, it's so accessible and yet so full of

scholarship, it's witty, it's so insightful, it's just a must read book. And one of the things you

write about, I mean, talking about whiteness, is this concept of white people has been in existence

since 1661. The idea, as you write, that different features, hair textures or complexions

have any intrinsic value of meaning, and that they constitute racial difference, didn't exist

before then, and you're going to ask who will white people before they were white. So what do we

mean by all of that? Let's start by that. What do you mean by all of that, which I've just thrown

your own words at you? Yeah, I think, first of all, thank you for your very generous appraisal of

my book. So whiteness, yes, we are speaking so much about race at the moment, as we should be,

these conversations are long overdue, but I worry that the frame, the way we frame the conversation

in a lot of the current anti-racist moment, movement even, is to actually reinvest

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