562. What Do We Actually Know About Autism? | Sir Simon Baron-Cohen

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

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Education, Science, Society & Culture

4.6 • 34.5K Ratings

🗓️ 14 July 2025

⏱️ 97 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson speaks with psychologist and autism researcher Dr. Simon Baron-Cohen about the nature of empathy, systemizing, and the neurological basis of autism. This needed conversation explores how humans develop theory of mind, the differences between cognitive and affective empathy, and why some individuals gravitate toward systems over social interaction. They discuss the evolutionary roots of invention, gender differences in cognition, and how autistic traits relate to creativity and pattern recognition. Unflinchingly, they also discuss the darker side of empathy deficits—including psychopathy and cruelty—raising urgent questions about compassion, human development, and our capacity for evil. Professor of Psychology and Psychiatry at the University of Cambridge, Simon Baron-Cohen is Director of the Autism Research Centre and a global leader in autism research. He pioneered the 'mindblindness' and 'empathizing-systemizing' theories, has authored over 770 scientific papers, and was knighted in 2021 for his contributions to autism understanding. His work spans clinical practice, public education, and cutting-edge research on cognitive sex differences, empathy, and neurodiversity. This episode was filmed on July 5th, 2025 | Links | For Simon Baron-Cohen: On X https://x.com/sbaroncohen?lang=en Read Dr. Baron-Cohen’s most recent book, as discussed in the show, “The Pattern Seekers: How Autism Drives Human Invention” https://a.co/d/9hsG5MR

Transcript

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0:00.0	One of the things we might want to do is lay out the cardinal features of autism. How would you
0:05.2	characterize autism? Autism isn't just a single thing. There are multiple dimensions to autism, multiple
0:13.2	factors. The fact that it's a multi-dimensional disorder risks obscuring its central features.
0:19.6	If we just focus on the things that they have challenges with, it's like a deficit model.
0:24.6	If we recognize that brains develop differently and that some brains focus more on systems than they do on people,
0:31.6	there's growing evidence that autistic people are better than non-autistic people at understanding systems,
0:39.3	at pattern recognition, which is obviously a great asset in a lot of different environments. Hello, everybody.
1:00.6	My guest today, Professor Simon Baron Cohen is a world-renowned clinical psychologist
1:06.4	and director of the Autism Research Center at Cambridge.
1:10.0	He's done groundbreaking work on autism,
1:12.6	empathy, systemizing, and the extreme male brain. In doing so, he's reshaped our understanding
1:20.2	of neurodiversity. He's the author of numerous books, including his latest, The Pattern Seekers,
1:27.1	How Autism Drives Human Invention.
1:31.2	He spoke to us at length today about tool use, about theory of mind, and most controversially,
1:38.1	perhaps the differences in male and female approaches to the world and male and female
1:43.3	neurological structure.
1:45.2	Join us for that.
1:47.5	Well, Dr. Barron Cohen, I have been looking forward to talking to you for a long time.
1:52.7	I've followed your research.
1:55.6	I don't know for how long.
1:58.3	15 years, 20 years, a long time.
2:01.2	And there's a lot of things that we,
	...

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