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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of The Art of Manliness Podcast.

In the modern age, shame is often seen as an unmitigated bad.

According to this popular review, all shame is negative and toxic and step should be taken

to avoid and rid one's self of it.

My guess today, however, makes the contrarian case that some shame is actually necessary

to develop a true sense of self.

His name is Joseph Bergo.

He's a clinical psychologist in the author of the book, Shame, For Yourself, Find Joy,

and Build True Self-esteem.

Today on the show, Joseph and I discuss what exactly shame is, what it feels like, and

the difference between toxic shame and productive shame.

Joseph then walks us through the sources of shame, and how childhood shame can mark us

for life.

We then discuss tactics we use to mask or avoid feelings of shame, how these masking

behaviors can sometimes get in the way of us making progress in our lives in more productive

ways to engage with shame.

Joseph then digs into the culture of online shaming and the dangers we face as a society

when we shame men by pathologizing healthy, masculine attributes like assertiveness, risk

taking, and competitiveness.

Have the shows over, check out our show notes at a-o-m dot i-s slash shame.

Joseph joins me now via clearcast dot i-o.

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