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Hello everybody, it's your Chappo for the week. It's me, Matt and Virgil here and we're very excited to be joined now by a now-making or second appearance on the show, getting that two-time Chappo Challenge coin.

It is Naomi Klein to talk about her new book on fire, the burning case for the Green New Deal. Naomi, how are you doing?

Very well, good to be with you guys again.

In writing the book or putting it together, you sure do an annual job of going against pure doomism despite the content of it. Was that was that difficult?

I mean, there's a lot of doom. I mean, it's interesting what passes for being hopeful these days is just sort of seeing any possibility that we might rally and do what is required to prevent absolutely catastrophic unraveling because we've already locked in.

You know, a level of warming that is extremely dangerous. I mean, this is why I sort of hesitate over the word doom. I think we're going to be, no matter what we do, we're going to be living with greater levels of climate disruption than we're seeing already and we're already seeing some really, really scary events with having more of the planet by one degree Celsius.

So I think it's really about how we decide to take care of each other in the context of serial climate shocks, whether we're going to tip into a full kind of climate barbarism.

And, you know, and the reason I don't just feel sort of raw terror about it is that there's a there's a greater appetite for that kind of systemic change than there has been at any point in my adult life, right?

And there's definitely a generational shift going on, as you guys know, where there's, you know, activists in their 20s are not terrified of connecting with other movements. They're not terrified of talking about capitalism.

They actually know that the climate crisis is one of many systemic crisis crises produced under the system. So that's progress, I guess.

You talked to just in the beginning about how like this, this sort of shift in this debate away from this idea that global warming is a problem, but we can manage it within the confines of a free market capitalist system to one that

is supposed to is that there's basically nothing we can do the scale of the problem is too large and we just have to sort of withstand it.

Given that turn, how does that thinking lead to what you describe as climate barbarism and what might that look like?

Well, I think we're in it. Like I don't think that we are, I don't think it's a coincidence that as climate disruption becomes a lived reality, whether or not people claim to deny it or not.

And I think most of the people who claim to deny that the climate has changed here are just lying, right? Like Donald Trump had to had to change the designs of his golf courses to deal with sea level rise. They all know it's happening. They just think they're going to be all right. They think they're going to make the able to make short term profits. I think they're going to be able to fortress themselves and their families.

And so the climate barbarism is no longer denying that it is happening or really just kind of doing a lackluster effort around the denial, like the occasional tweet saying it's a Chinese hoax.

But adapting in the sense of moving money from responses to the crisis over to building concentration camps and fortressing the borders.

And we're seeing this in the US. We're seeing the money move from FEMA disaster response to ICE and migration detention.

We're seeing in Europe a similar process underway with the offshoring of the patrolling of the sea use for migrants to the Libyan coast guard, as they call themselves, but they're really a bunch of warlords and they're bringing migrants to concentration camps in Libya.

All of this is modeled after Australia, which has been doing this for many years where they intercept the votes and make sure that they never make it to Australian soil.

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