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Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Arnumann.

And me, William Durunpool.

I have to say this is a very special episode of Empire because those of you who listen regularly will know that I have some kind of anaphylactic shock when we have more than one Dalrymple. I mean, you know, there's a splattering of Dalrymples throughout this podcast because William seems to be related to everyone. But I could not be more delighted today because we have one of my favorite Dalrymples. It's not William, it's you, Sam Dalrymple, historian, and also we should

say son of the other Dalrymple. But you're here because you've written this masterful first book.

Can I just say it makes me sick with envy that this is your first book, Sam Dillample.

It's, I mean, astonishing. I find it irritating too if it's any comfort. Do you know, I've said to

your father that if this were a Greek tragedy, you ought to be hiding in a cave.

Seriously, these things don't go well. Watch out. I know. So this is the beautiful, beautiful book. It's called Shattered Lands, Five Partitions, and the Making of Modern Asia. It is a beautiful cover for what is an enormously informative book. And it's, I don't know, William, about you, but you're closer to the author than I am. However, I thought I was closer to this

subject than it turns out that I am, because it doesn't just talk about partition in terms of

India and Pakistan, which we think we know very well, but it's about five partitions that have

shaped the world. I think everyone in India was very taken about by this too, because partition is always

something talked about in the singular. And everyone knows the story of 1947. And of course,

we've dealt with it before on the podcast, these tragic tales of people moving from one country to the

other in long lines of bullet carts and then terrible scuffles and bloodshed and massacres which follow.

But Sam's book has the idea that there are five partitions, which took everybody in India by

surprise.

And as a result, I'm very irritated to see that it's gone to number one in the Indian charts

and knocked me down to number five.

Zoomed past him, Sam.

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