If we interpret the fall as the fall into metacognition, then I would say empirically, that's obviously true.

We broke our relationship with the harmony of instinct before we were prepared.

And what happened was that we became able to develop technology because of metacognition,

but without the empathy required to apply the technology wisely, as opposed to that very narrowly contracted field of personal benefit, which is exactly what we leverage when we use technology. So I would say, yeah, the fall happened before it was a good move on the part of nature or on the part of the divinity.

It was too early and the evidence for that is life as we live it today and the risks that we bring to ourselves and everything else that

lives on the surface of this planet. This is Jonathan Pajot. Welcome to the symbolic world.

Hi, welcome for Christ. My name is Marcus. Today I'm joined once again by two brilliant gentlemen, Jonathan Pajot and Dr. Bernardo Castro. Jonathan is a French-Canadian icon carver,

public speaker and YouTuber, exploring the symbolic patterns that underlie our experience of the world,

how these patterns emerge and come together, manifest in religion, art, and in popular culture.

He's also the editor of the Orthodox Arts Journal, a host of symbolic world blog and

podcast. Bernardo is the executive director of Ascencia Foundation. His work has been leading

the modern renaissance of metaphysical idealism, the notion that reality is essentially mental,

is a PhD in philosophy and another PhD in computer engineering. So I suppose just to begin then,

I'd love to know really what stuck with

you, Jens, from the last conversation we had and maybe some of the trades that you'd like to follow

up then. If you start with Shad, Jonathan. I really enjoyed the last conversation. I thought that

I was able to understand Bernardo's thought more and also able to connect it with, let's say, the errors of thinking and research that I'm involved with.

I'm more, I'm definitely interested in exploring more of the question of mind as it applies to higher beings or distributed consciousnesses, the different ways that people are phrasing it.

I've been thinking a lot about that even more now.

And so that's something that I'm interested in exploring, still seeing how we can make sense of agency in terms of agency that appears above us as humans.

Yeah, on my side, it was a delight to sort of get live confirmation of the fact that there are people out there still that consider

it important to have a symbolic religious life, religious symbolism, religious icons,

...