245: Rumman Chowdhury: Why the Real AI Crisis Is Moral, Not Technical

No Small Endeavor with Lee C. Camp

Lee Camp

Society & Culture, Religion & Spirituality, Philosophy

4.8 • 556 Ratings

🗓️ 26 January 2026

⏱️ 54 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

What if the greatest danger of artificial intelligence isn’t what it might do someday, but the power it already wields today? Social scientist and AI ethics leader Dr. Rumman Chowdhury joins Lee C. Camp to challenge popular narratives about artificial intelligence, arguing that the real story is not superintelligence or apocalypse, but power, incentives, and responsibility. Drawing on her work at Twitter and her nonprofit ⁠Humane Intelligence⁠, Chowdhury explores how systems of surveillance, corporate profit, and moral outsourcing shape our technological future and what it will take to build AI that serves authentic human flourishing. Key Ideas: Learn to Ask “Who Benefits?”Behind every AI system are incentive structures and power arrangements within for-profit companies. Cultivating the habit of asking who gains and who pays the cost helps us see technology more truthfully. Refuse to Blame the MachineCalling harm “the AI’s fault” allows humans and institutions to evade responsibility, so ethical clarity begins by keeping people accountable. Pay Attention to What’s Already HereFears about future AI apocalypse distract us from the real effects already shaping culture, labor, democracy, and community right now. Be Wary of Convenience That Watches YouSurveillance almost always arrives disguised as safety or ease, but recognizing how data collection concentrates power helps us protect human dignity and freedom. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠ ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Rumman Chowdhury⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	I'm Lee C. Camp and this is no small endeavor exploring what it means to live a good life.
0:09.7	There is one thing to have a social imperative, a moral imperative, a design imperative to say,
0:16.2	oh, we need to build systems that are not discriminatory. I think everybody can agree on that.
0:21.4	That's not the problem.
0:22.7	That's social scientist and data scientist, Dr. Ramon Chowdhury, talking about her work
0:27.8	at the intersection of ethics and artificial intelligence.
0:31.1	The problem is in the implementation.
0:33.3	What does that look like in practice?
0:34.6	How do I test it?
0:35.3	How do I build it?
0:36.3	We discussed the practical challenges of AI governance, the financial incentives at the heart of the tech industry,
0:41.9	and how real-world data might perhaps help us find ways forward.
0:47.4	It's power dynamics that determine what these algorithms are curating, what is allowed
0:51.7	and what isn't, rather than scientific objectivity.
0:55.0	Well, coming right up.
1:01.2	Are you curious about the hidden side of everything?
1:05.0	Then I have a podcast for you.
1:06.9	I'm Stephen Dubner, host of Free Economics Radio.
1:09.7	Each week we hear from some of the most fascinating scholars and thinkers as we tackle big topics,
1:15.2	like how whales became the face of environmental activism, how to succeed at failing,
1:21.0	and whether public transportation should be free.
1:23.8	Go ahead.
	...

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