Hi, everyone. I'm Dan Snow. I'm currently in the Antarctic, so we've chosen today to play an episode of one of our sibling podcasts.

It's Warfare for people who love military history, presented by James Rogers. He's got great episode for you. Enjoy.

Where should we start to look back at the long turbulent history of British Russian relations?

Well, according to Lord David Owen, the former Foreign Secretary of the United Kingdom, we should look back to the Battle of Navarina.

This took place on the 20th of October 1827 when a combined fleet of British French and Russian vessels worked together to destroy the Ottoman fleet at anchor in Navarino Bay, in Greece.

This battle is notable for many reasons. It was the last major engagement involving only wooden ships. It was a decisive step towards Greek independence.

But it was also quite remarkably a key moment in British, Russian, political relations. As politicians looked to distance themselves from this very clear British naval victory because it was won in conjunction with the Russians, the Russians who the Wellington government thought were trying to mark their own territory in India at the time.

There was deep suspicion of the Russians. Now, I'm your host, James Rogers, and here on the Warfare podcast, Lord David Owen, who served as Navy Minister, he served as British Foreign Secretary, and as EU peace negotiator in the former Yugoslavia during the 1990s.

Well, he is going to take us through this long history of British Russian relations. He's the ideal person to do this. He's the author of a new book, Riddle Mystery and Enigma, 200 years of British Russian relations, seems quite on the nose, and of course, during his over two decades in power, he spent a lot of time working closely with the Russians. Enjoy.

David, welcome to the Warfare podcast. How are you today? I'm fine. Looking forward to the discussion. Yes, me too. And it is an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast as a former Navy Minister and Foreign Minister.

It is good to have you here at a time of growing tensions of conflict in Europe, and in fact, all the more pertinent that we're discussing quite a relevant historical example of a much larger power or powers infringing upon the independence of a much smaller nation.

And this is particular today in terms of the battle of Navarino. So, David, please, take us back in history. Where should we begin in order to understand properly the dynamics of this battle?

Well, I was keen to show that there has been a period in our history, which we've worked very well with Russia. And in this particular case, it was a very carefully arranged, reprachmal between Britain and Russia. And to some extent Britain and France by canning, who was then foreign secretary.

And he came in in 1822 and he looked around the world and he saw that the Greeks were wanting independence. And he was favorable to that. And the port, the Ottoman Empire was totally opposed to it. And war was starting between the two. And it raged on while he effectively shifted British foreign policy.

As he had done towards America, I think he was a great figure canning actually one of our great foreign sectors. And what he understood was, but if you wanted a settlement with the port and we did.

And you wanted to bring the Greeks and the Ottoman Empire together and stop fighting, you had to have power. And that it was no good just relying on diplomacy.

You had to be able to bring a force which they would listen to. So he assembled really a strategy. Some people call it humanitarian war. The first humanitarian war. I don't believe that at all.

The Congress system had been breaking down and it was good opportunity now with a new foreign secretary and he went for Russia and began to talk through emissaries through the Russian ambassadors wife in particular Russian ambassadors wife in London, who was asked to go to Moscow and she went and spoke to the saw.

And more importantly, some of his key officials came back reported to canning and he began to see that he would be possible to get Russia on side for a diplomatic presentation to the Ottoman Empire.

And it was paying to be backed by force and then he spent a whole month in France in Paris. The ambassador was the friend of his, but his task was to bring the French on board as well, which he did. And so then you started seeing the Russia Britain and France putting in the dialogue in Istanbul with the port.

And it was all that they should allow proper Greek independence. They started off with just a half and fiddling around and not genuine and not serious. But they began to realize that we were serious about this. And by this time Admiral codrington had been agreed to be the British commander of the fleet.

And he actually went into the bay of Navarino, which is in the Peloponnes in Greece, right down on the southernmost tip, one of the most beautiful natural harbours in the Mediterranean. In fact, harbours was the site of one of the battles between the Spartans and the Athenians.

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