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offer ends December 3rd, 2023. Open to UK and N.I. Guardian. I'm John John Bachelor with Judy Dempsey, the editor-in-chief of Strategic Europe

for the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

She's in Berlin. And Berlin and I have both read

through an article just published by Foreign Affairs written by Richard Haas

the Distinguished Emeritus President of the Council on Foreign Relations,

and his colleague Professor Charles Kupton, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations,

Professor of International Affairs at Georgetown University, who was in the State

Department for the Obama administration.

And the article has many moving pieces, but the one I come to immediately is the word ceasefire. Ceasefire in a conversation

between Ukraine, NATO, and the Russian forces. They're not predicting. They're not saying there's elements to believe that the

conversation is already underway, but they're suggesting that there is another road

ahead besides Maximalist position of recover Crimea and eastern

Don Bass. Judy, you've read this article as I do and it's very carefully constructed to

suggest not to order Ukraine to come to the

table. It's not clear in this article that Russia would come to the table, but I

ask first your opinion of the way this was presented. It wasn't

...