104 — No Time to Think with Hannah Barnes: The Downfall of GIDS at the Tavistock
Gender: A Wider Lens
Sasha Ayad and Stella O'Malley
4.6 • 961 Ratings
🗓️ 3 March 2023
⏱️ 80 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
Hannah Barnes is Investigations Producer at the BBC’s flagship television news and current affairs program, Newsnight. She has spent the last 15 years at the BBC, specializing in investigative and analytical journalism for both television and radio. Hannah led Newsnight’s coverage of the care available to young people experiencing gender-related distress at the UK’s National Health Service’s (NHS) only youth gender clinic in England and Wales, the Gender Identity Development Services (GIDS) at the Tavistock in London.
In this episode, Sasha and Stella speak with Hannah about how, although she continued to report and expose questions, nothing changed and she eventually felt compelled to write a book; as she says herself “I knew too much.” In this probing discussion, issues such as puberty blockers, overwhelming caseloads, and the impact of lobby groups, such as Mermaids, are highlighted and explored.
Hannah’s work at Newsnight ultimately helped precipitate an extensive review by the NHS and unearthed evidence that was later used in several sets of legal proceedings. Newsnight’s reporting also led directly to an inspection by England’s healthcare regulator, the Care Quality Commission, which branded the services provided by the GIDS clinic “Inadequate.” The service is scheduled to close in spring 2023 following a series of critical reports.
Hannah’s new book, Time To Think: The Inside Story of the Collapse of the Tavistock’s Gender Service for Children, is a meticulously researched account of what went wrong at the Tavistock Clinic, which made headlines around the world on publication. In writing the book, Hannah studied thousands of pages of documents, including internal emails and unpublished reports, and well over a hundred hours of personal testimony from GIDS clinicians, former service users, and senior Tavistock figures, to write a disturbing and gripping parable of our times.
Links:
Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Time-Think-Collapse-Tavistocks-Children-ebook/dp/B0BCL1T2XN
Swift Press: https://swiftpress.com/book/time-to-think/
Waterstones: https://www.waterstones.com/book/time-to-think/hannah-barnes//9781800751118
Newsnight coverage of GIDS at the Tavistock: https://www.bayswatersupport.org.uk/bbc-newsnight-coverage
If you liked this episode, more episodes you might find interesting:
Episode 27 — Behind the Curtain: Psychotherapy for Gender Dysphoria with Sue and Marcus Evans
https://www.widerlenspod.com/p/27-behind-the-curtain-psychotherapy-316
Episode 31 - Silencing Thought: A Conversation with Heather Brunskell-Evans
https://www.widerlenspod.com/p/31-silencing-thought-a-conversation-29d
Episode 64 - Pioneers Series: Psychotherapy Pre- and Post-Transition with Az Hakeem
https://www.widerlenspod.com/p/64-pioneers-series-psychotherapy-5ea
Episode 91 — Uncovering the GIDS Disaster: Dr. Dave Bell
https://www.widerlenspod.com/p/91-uncovering-the-gids-disaster-dr-3af
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Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | All right, Stella. So today we're interviewing Hannah Barnes and she's the investigative producer at the flagship BBC show called News Night. It's like a current affairs program. |
| 0:10.0 | And before we get into the interview, we thought it would be helpful to kind of talk through a timeline of what happened at the Tavist talk because Hannah wrote a book, a new book called Time to Think, where she basically dug through hours and hours worth of documents and transcripts about what happened at the |
| 0:28.6 | Jids Tabistock Service. So to give listeners some context, we're going to start with a timeline. So maybe where do we start us off here for the listeners? |
| 0:36.4 | Yeah, well it was established in 1989 by a guy called Dominico de Shegli and he thought there should be a gender identity development |
| 0:44.8 | service in the UK. It started in 1989. It was tiny and it wasn't until 2004 2005 |
| 0:51.9 | when Sue Evans she raised concerns that people were |
| 0:55.4 | being fast-tracked she wasn't very happy and a brilliant report was filed |
| 1:01.6 | with recommendations in 2006 and yet it was it was ignored for 15 years. |
| 1:09.4 | They didn't look at it. Yeah Sue Evans was a clinician who worked there. We interviewed her on our show. So like pretty early on she was |
| 1:16.4 | sounding the alarm about something that she felt wasn't right at the service, but like you said it was so small that it didn't get much attention. |
| 1:22.8 | And then in 2011 they started, they'd already, they were administering puberty blockers and |
| 1:28.1 | recommended beauty blocks, but on a low level the numbers were tiny, but they started a trial to see how will these children fare how |
| 1:36.6 | will it be and in 2016 by then the numbers were really starting to rise I think 2015 is when the numbers started rise exponentially. |
| 1:46.1 | Then the results of the trial came in of the first the interim the early results of this trial in 2016 and they were not good |
| 1:56.4 | and from then on it seems like you know jids at the Tavistock was in disarray the numbers |
| 2:01.3 | the clinicians were overwhelmed with 50, 80, 90, 100 different caseloads. |
| 2:07.4 | Like, unbelievable pressure was going on and a lot of people raised concerns. |
| 2:12.2 | Sonia Appleby, the child safeguarding lead, |
| 2:15.1 | she raised concerns from 2017, 2018 onwards. |
| 2:19.0 | David Bell, the lead psycho analyst in the Tavist |
| 2:24.4 | he raised concerns and they were just |
| 2:27.6 | they kept on getting batted away and that's why the timeline is so shocking |
... |
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