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All right, so you and G to get married, tell us really quickly what led you both to get PhDs.

You coming from a working class background, she didn't come from a elite, high socio-economic

status background either. How did you kind of working class news-alenders end up pursuing PhDs

together as a married couple within a very patriarchal kind of Mormon structure?

You're a good question. First thing I should probably say because you'll be doing this

from an American perspective in which first start tertiary education is very expensive.

And I suppose there's some elitism associated with that. In New Zealand, tertiary education

up until the late 80s was free basically. You paid $100 for your fees. About 90% of that was your

student union fee and about $10 of that was for tuition. And then there was restructuring

and about the same time that Reaganism was going on, we were experiencing something called

Roger Nomics, which was the same principal user pay. And so then we started paying for

our education but it was still a minimal amount. Even now, students only pay 25% of their

tuition. The government pays the rest. And so really it's accessible to anyone.

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